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Many thanks for your contribution. So glad to get other people to comment on such a sad time as this must have been.

Wikidot user (guest) 20 Mar 2012 04:52
in discussion General Discussions / Overall Comments » Welcome to the Website

The expulsion of the Germans l945-l947 was a major crime. Some l5 million Germans, mainly old men, old women, mothers, girls and boys, were brutally driven from their ancient homes in Silesia, East Prussia, West Prussia, Eastern Brandenburg and East Pomerania. Of the 15 million, some two to three million were killed or died. There were numerous incidents of murder, mass rape of German women, old women and young girls ages 8 to 80, and the plundering of private property. These acts were committed by Poles, Czechs and Russians and they are a black page on the history of all these countries. Why do you Poles hate (fear?) Erika Steinbach so much. Don't the Germans who were mercilessly expelled from their Homeland have the right to remember what happened to them? It doesn't matter where Frau Steinbach came from. She has the authority and the support of the German expellees. As our famous president Abraham Lincoln said: 'Nothing is settled until it is settled fairly.' The Oder-Neisse Line is still not a fair solution and until a better solution is found, there will be no real peace. The crimes committed AGAINST the Germans in World War II by the Allies were as terrible as those committed BY the Germans. The Poles, Czechs and others need to admit the crimes they committed against the Germans during the Expulsion. Many of us here in the USA know the truth about the crimes committed against the Germans (the Expulsion, the murderous air war that cost 500,000 German lives and the treatment of German POWS by the Americans on the Rhine fields. We don't need the hateful propaganda and falsehoods coming from Eastern Europe. I certainly know what the Poles themselves suffered, but it does
not change the reality and horror of the Expulsion of the Germans.

by Wikidot user (guest), 20 Mar 2012 04:52

Many thanks for your post (especially as it is the one thing about my website that has not been successful i.e. the number of posts). I will definitely look into the reference you have made. May I wish you all the best in your research.

Re: More memoirs by Edgar The PeacefulEdgar The Peaceful, 06 Sep 2011 20:21

A Long Silence: Memories of a German Refugee Child, 1941-1958 by Sabina De Werth Neu
Hour of the Women by Christian von Krockaw, from an oral narrative told by his sister, Libussa Fritz-Krockow

More memoirs by Linda Warley (guest), 05 Sep 2011 20:32

Many thanks for posting your initial comments. I trust your return is worthwhile. It was only four years ago that I actually heard of Silesia for the first time. It is very sad that more people are not aware of what happened after the war was supposed to have ended. Comments such as yours make my small endevour to inform people as to where they can find out more seem worthwhile and are really appreciated.

by Edgar The PeacefulEdgar The Peaceful, 24 Oct 2010 08:34
Elisabeth (guest) 23 Oct 2010 15:21
in discussion General Discussions / Overall Comments » Welcome to the Website

I just found your site and am very interested in your research and links. My father, now 80, was born in Silesia and lived through this madness as a child and young adult. My mother, now 76, was born in the Ruhr area. It makes me cry when I think of what both my parents endured during and after the war and how little most people really know of that time.

I will be back (I am bookmarking it now!) when I have more time to really look through your information. Thank you for being here.

by Elisabeth (guest), 23 Oct 2010 15:21

I don't think it's any secret that Churchill loved France almost as much as he loved the USA. He regularly took his holidays on the Rivierra and was well-known in French political circles between the wars. Despite his actions against Vichy France at Mers-el-Kebir, Dakar, Syria and Madagascar, and despite his often prickly, tense relations with de Gaulle, he always maintained, in public at least, respect and admiration for France. In his speech to the House of Commons (the famous or infamous "clean sweep will be made" speech about Prussia) on returning from Yalta, he praised the way France had "come bouncing back strongly" in 1944. The USA and USSR wanted to keep France out of Germany in 1945 and have a 3-power occupation, and it was Churchill who insisted that France be treated as an "equal" victor power with it's own occupation zone - with disastrous results for thousands of German women raped in Stuttgart and many other places (an entire volume could be written about this war crime, but never has. Suffice it to say that "French" troops, many of them Morrocan and Algerian, raped more women in a week than the German Army had in the whole of France in 4 years of occupation.).
In 1944, Churchill publicly attended a high profile mass in Paris with de Gaulle soon after it's liberation and showed himself the erstwhile friend of the French, whilst British newsreels, which took their lead from him, described "gallant" France as "occupied but never defeated" - a rather curious contradiction in terms.
After the war, Churchill was a keen advocate of the EEC though he was dubious about British entry into it. His "iron curtain" speech showed how his thoughts on world security went. France with it's huge army would defend and police western Europe, while Britain, traditionally a sea- rather than a land-power, would protect the Empire and the rest of the world, in conjunction with the USA.
Privately, he was probably having doubts about France, having watched their miserable performance in 1940. Soon after leaving office, he said in pessimistic mood, to an aide: "What now stands between the white snows of Russia and the White Cliffs of Dover?" In public, however, he remained a fervent admirer and supporter of France. He even offered a "way ahead" to Germany in a speech in Strasbourg in 1952 (or thereabouts) made in French, in which he predicted a succesful economic future for both France and Germany - as long as Germany accepted French leadership. This speech was praised as a way of rehabilitating Germany, but the reality was that Germany had to accept French dominance.
Well, he got his way in a sense. Germany, it's military power broken in 1945, and with Prussia, the state that gave Germany it's steel backbone, eradicated forever, remains subservient to France in the EU. France is very much the top dog in Europe and remains the only nation that has used it's veto in EU decision-making - an indication that France expects the EU to work for French interests.
I could write a lot more on this subject, but it might pay you to read Churchill's "History of the English-Speaking Nations" or his "History of World War Two." You may already have done so, in which case you'll be aware of his shortcomings as a historian. They shed some very revealing light on his Francophilia.

Re: Churchill's role by Steve ListerSteve Lister, 20 Sep 2010 19:17

Does anybody have any views, comments or even experiences they want to share about the Flucht und Vertreibung?

Many thanks for a very interesting post.
Though I respectfully suggest that we appear to agree that Chuchill did indeed suffer from chronic Germanophobia, your view on him being a Francophile is something that I admit to not having considered, having focussed instead on his love of the US of A. I need to read more on this.

Many thanks for your input.
Freda Utley: I was aware of her book "The High Cost of Vengeance" and would love to read it though I currently have over twenty books "lined up and ready to read" so it'll be some time before I'll be able to do that . In the meantime I intend "quoting" what she said at the Beginning of Chapter Seven on the website in the not too distant future.
Austin App: I had no knowledge as to this man. Hopefully I'll rectify that.
Sydney Fay: A very brief search into who this man was would seem to show that he might have done for World War One what A.J.P. Taylor did for World War Two i.e. conduct proper research into the causes of the war as opposed to repeating what the politicians and media might have one believe.

Re: More authors by Edgar The PeacefulEdgar The Peaceful, 01 Aug 2010 16:29

Freda Utley, Austin App.
For the origins of World War One, without which there woukld have been no Hitler and no World war 2, the American historian Sydney Fay is an invaluable source. He places the blame for the 1914 conflict firmly on the shoulders of France, Russia and Serbia - not Germany, or even Austria!

More authors by Steve ListerSteve Lister, 11 Jul 2010 14:54

Churchill and Prussia

Winston Churchill was the driving force behind the extermination of Prussia and the forced expulsion of millions of Germans from Prussian territory annexed by Poland. His stated reason of compensating Poland at Germany's expense was his excuse for the expulsion, yet his real reason and aim was to make France the most powerful nation in western Europe - and a leader of the future EU.

Sir Winston Churchill remains arguably the most famous British politician of all-time and his legend as a war leader is firmly entrenched in British history.

Yet behind the myths and legends surrounding him lie some of the darkest deeds in world history, possibly deeds as savage as the Nazi Holocaust.

In 1947, the state of Prussia, the largest and most productive in Germany, was abolished by decree of the four Allied occupying powers for Germany, in a decree announced at the Allied Kommandatura in Berlin. This decree received little publicity and it passed almost without comment by the world's media. Why was this? The reason was that Prussia, once a powerful state in it's own right and later the dominant power in the newly created German Empire, had already ceased to exist.

When the allied leaders met at Teheran and later Yalta to decide the fate of post-war Europe, the future for Germany was top of the agenda. The USA and USSR agreed that Germany would have to be occupied, disarmed and partitioned. The way the partition was to be implemented was unclear, but both superpowers agreed that Prussia was to be separated from the rest of Germany. In other words, there was no mention of Prussia being abolished or exterminated or airbrushed out of the history books. Prussia would remain, albeit with it's wings firmly clipped.

It was at this point that Chuchill demonstrated his opportunism and altered the equation, altering, as he did so, the future history of Europe.

Churchill was born in 1874, 4 years after the Franco-Prussian war that had led to the founding of the German Empire, in an time of intense French hatred of Germany and Prussia, which would eventually lead to World War One. Despite being known as the "Great Commoner" (he refused a peerage from the King after World War 2 ended), he was actually the son of Lord Randolph Churchill, a brother of the Duke of Marlborough, and his early years were ones of privilege and wealth enjoyed by our aristocratic families. A life-long Francophile, he regularly spent holidays in the south of France and was an enthusiastic admirer of French history and culture. Like many English aristocrats, he could trace his family ancestry back to the Normans who had accompanied William the Conqueror over the Channel in 1066. In his writings, he makes no secret of his admiration for William and speaks of the native Anglo-Saxon population of England as "foul barbarians". He felt a natural affinity for France, as he demonstrated in his “Sinews of peace” speech (1947).

In 1914, Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty, the civilian and political leader of the world's greatest navy. As the crisis leading to World War 1 developed, the Royal Navy's Home Fleet, it's largest component, was completing a major exercise in the Atlantic Ocean and preparing to return to it's home bases of Portsmouth, Plymouth, Chatham and Rosyth. At this point, war had not yet broken out and Britain was undecided if it would enter the conflict even if it came. Without consulting his Cabinet colleagues, Churchill ordered the Home Fleet to steam to it's war-time base of Scapa Flow. A wise precautionary move, or was it one intended to drive Britain into the coming conflict?

Between the wars, Churchill confided to his "inner circle" of friends that his destiny was to "lead the British people in another 30 Years War against Germany." By this, he did not mean a war that would last 30 years, but rather one that would devastate and depopulate Germany. Against this background, we should recall his enthusiastic backing for the genocidal Morgenthau Plan which was at least partially implemented in 1945.

At Teheran and Yalta, Churchill revealed his true aim. Mindful of Britain's pledge to defend Poland in 1939, and realizing also that Poland had no chance of regaining it's territory lost to the USSR in 1939, he proposed that Poland be "compensated" for the loss of it's eastern lands by annexing huge swathes of territory to the west in Germany, land that had been for centuries the state of Prussia. This wholesale land grab, taking East Prussia (less the area around Koenigsberg), West Prussia, Silesia, Eastern Pomerania, and part of Western Pomerania, would effectively destroy and eradicate Prussia, accompanied as it would be by the “ethnic cleansing” of those Germans (Prussians) whose ancestral homes were affected..

Was this done to "compensate Poland" as Churchill claimed or was there a more sinister motive? After 1945, Churchill promoted the foundation of the EEC, the forerunner of the EU, although he was against British involvement. In his public utterances, he supported and praised the new spirit of co-operation and peace between France, Italy, the Benelux countries - and the newly-formed Republic of West Germany. Given the burden of guilt imposed on Germany at Potsdam, 1945, and the huge problems facing the infant West German government of the time (reconstruction and reparations being only part of the problems they faced), it was obvious that France would be the dominant partner in any such economic alliance. Was this what he had worked all his life for?

We can see the period 1648-1945 as a titanic struggle for control of Germany between France, Austria and Prussia, although this is perhaps an oversimplification and ignores other events in world history. In 1945, it was obvious that France had finally won this struggle, largely by default, as other nations (mainly the USSR) had actually won the fight for it. French leaders such as de Gaulle enthusiastically endorsed Churchill's plan for destroying Prussia, as this would lead to the creation of the sort of Germany France has always wanted, a rich but weak, compliant nation always willing to do France's bidding. In this context, it's remarkable that, on a map, West Germany, pre-re-unification (1990), looks very similar to Bonaparte's "Confederation of the Rhine", a previous attempt to settle Germany to France's satisfaction which collapsed following the Corsican's invasion of Russia (1812) and the subsequent German uprising against French rule (1813). Is this perhaps why France under Mitterand opposed German re-unification so strongly?

Even today, Germany is still France's willing partner and financier, prepared to play second fiddle to French ambitions.

Although executed (literally!) by others, the murder of Prussia, together with the slaughter, mass rape and enslavement of millions of it's citizens, and the expulsion of the remainder under conditions that demonstrated "not just an absence of niceness, but the very maximum of brutality" (Victor Gollancz), was instigated by Churchill.

Sir Winston Churchill, the best British Prime Minister France has ever had?

Steve Lister.

Re: Churchill's role by Steve ListerSteve Lister, 06 Jul 2010 19:00

I will check this out & reply soon

Re: Churchill's role by Mike (guest), 28 Jun 2010 18:12

I've just been doing up some tidying on the site using the "Bibliography" functionality and got rid of a couple of references to sites where the links do not work anymore. As and when I change the use of urls from "direct links" to using the "Bibliography" functionality as a part of my ongoing "general site maintenance" I'll continue eliminating those references to sites that no longer work / exist. This should "focus" references to "ongoing" sites.

Having posted critical comments regarding the role of Winston Churchill in the activities that led to the Flight and Expulsion of Ethnic Germans, readers are asked to post their views here.

Churchill's role by Edgar The PeacefulEdgar The Peaceful, 28 Jun 2010 16:36

A good first attempt, still needs a bit of tweeking but overall quite impressive

Re: Please leave a message by Garry (guest), 14 Jan 2010 16:04

On Sunday 22 November 2009 I noticed that one particular link was not working. In an effort to encourage people to post on the forum, with only one post from anyone except myself since the forum's creation, I have decided not to fix the fault or, if needed, remove the link, until someone identifies which one it is. I will continue to monitor all links as part of my "regular site maintenance" and correct any other faults that I, or anyone else, find.

A request for the authors of the books referred to on this website to leave a note whilst visiting; after all, you have initiated the journey…..

I would appreciate any constructive feedback that you feel might help me improve this website. Perhaps there are other images I should put in or links to certain websites that I am not aware of; or, from the opposite perspective perhaps I should remove certain images or links. Please let me know.

Thanks for "popping in". Hope you enjoy more visits.

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